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Talk:Children of Mars (episode)
Year? Maybe I missed it... but where does the year 2384 come from in this episode? -- sulfur (talk) 11:26, January 10, 2020 (UTC) :My guess would be Comic-con -- Capricorn (talk) 13:20, January 10, 2020 (UTC) ::Not that it matters at this point anyway, but I think this will actually end up changing by the time the Picard show starts, because in Picard Countdown it's 2385, and Utopia Planitia is still there. (could've rebuilt it I suppose) And despite being a non-canon comic, you'd think they'd try harder to make there story fit. ::Also, I think they got the 2384 date from the fact that in one of the trailers it says "fifteen years ago...something about rescue armada..." Anyway but that's just assuming that the show is set in the year 2399, which we have been told it is about as many times as we've been told it's not. ::It's kind of like when they told us Discovery was gonna be ten years before TOS. This was obviously not counting THE CAGE, because that'd be 2244. But really, it wasn't even ten years before season one, at least not the beginning of season one, otherwise it would have been 2255, but it wasn't, it was 2256. ::Basically my point is, I don't think we're really gonna know the year the show is set until it actually comes out. I remember people saying, it's twenty years after Nemesis, and the same people saying it was twenty years after TNG. The guy making Lower Decks said it was set in 2399, and that his show was set in 2380. I bet his show will be set in 2380 but I still have my doubts about the Picard show. ::--Noah Tall (talk) 15:48, January 10, 2020 (UTC) :::It would be more enjoyable if those that want "non-canon" information littered all over the site were also good at , but sadly they are not. I've removed all the links I could find to 19842384 and changed them to the 2380s, which is already a guess but at least has some humility baked in. Hopefully, the first episode of PIC will just be an exhibition dump that gives us all the information no one apparently can wait for, but if not, we should still wait before going nuts. :::Seriously though, if you're mathing a year at least show your work, and citations should be explicit even if there is nothing to link to. An edit summary isn't an explicit citation, it isn't even viewable to most of the readers. You don't have to do this on every page, but it at least needs to be done on one page, like here. - 18:42, January 10, 2020 (UTC) ::::I've seen reviews on other sites dating the episode to 2386, because that's the year the "The First Duty" exhibit gave for Picard's retirement. Of course, that's not an acceptable resource for us, and even if it were it would only be able to date the episode to 2386 or earlier... but it shows the hazards of leaning too much on ancillary sources. —Josiah Rowe (talk) 19:16, January 10, 2020 (UTC) :::::The first episode of Picard suggests the Mars attack occurred at the same time as the Romulus evacuation which likely places this Short Trek in 2387. Cryptic47 (talk) 08:35, January 23, 2020 (UTC) ::::Not necessarily. The Romulus evacuation was a major undertaking, and it would have taken time to build those "10,000 warp-capable ferries". The suggestion in "Remembrance" (which fits with what we've seen so far in Star Trek: Picard - Countdown) seems to be that there was some advance notice that the supernova was imminent, and the rescue armada was being built when the synths attacked. I think it's still possible, perhaps even likely, that the synth attack was in 2386, before the destruction of Romulus in 2387. But as far as I can tell the data at hand doesn't say definitively. I think we should leave it at "2380s" for now. —Josiah Rowe (talk) 17:26, January 23, 2020 (UTC) :::::The chronology on this page and in the official Chronology by Okuda is never that precise. When a character says 20 years ago we always take that literally instead of saying well they were probably rounding. Also, it's conjecture that this is literally First Contact Day yet April 5th remains up. Which furthers my point that this is no later than April 5, there's still 9 months left in the year for the supernova to occur giving plenty of time for the evacuation and the attack to occur this year. Based on precedence for dating I see no reason not to mark it as 2387 unless contradicted at a later time unless we're going to leave it as 2380s indefinitely. Cryptic47 (talk) 05:35, January 24, 2020 (UTC) :::::Nah this is just wrong. So at the very earliest this is April 5, 2386. We know the Supernova happens in 87. You're telling me the entirety of the Romulan Empire, the at least temporary assistance of the Federation, any local allies or sympathizers in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, couldn't evacuate Romulus in 9-21 months? Seems the intention is that the majority of Romulans are dead. Dating this as 2387 is the only thing that makes sense. Cryptic47 (talk) 05:49, January 24, 2020 (UTC) ::: . :::I'm blocking the next person who can't see a reason to talk this out and just adds a bunch of dates to pages without a clear citation to something explicit. That said, since the new info for dates comes from PIC, lets keep this all in one place. - 05:55, January 24, 2020 (UTC) :::::I wasn't thinking of the prequel comics and didn't realize they gave specific dates. Though not canon they do seem to represent the intentions of the creators of the show. Also with the First Duty exhibit placing his retirement in 86, that would seem to place this in 86 almost certainly, at least based on those offscreen sources.Cryptic47 (talk) 07:23, January 24, 2020 (UTC) :::::Episode 2 of Picard confirms the Mars attack as April 5, 2385. Cryptic47 (talk) 08:39, January 30, 2020 (UTC) MA as classroom resource? It's rather fuzzy, but if you pause the short just as the teacher puts Kima's demerits up on the screen, you can just about make out the text of the Stellar Cartography lesson — and it seems to be based, at least in part, on our supernova article. I can't make out all the text, but I'm fairly sure that the first sentence is "A star goes supernova every second in the universe." That's a very close paraphrase of the second paragraph of supernova. Can anybody else make out any of the rest of the text? Should we note this at supernova, or perhaps at Memory Alpha:Acknowledgments? —Josiah Rowe (talk) 18:33, January 10, 2020 (UTC) :This is what I am able to make out. If you see a …, it is where the text is not illegible. "A star goes supernova every second in the universe. It releases more energy in a … than our sun will in … billion years, generally leaving a core that becomes either a neutron star or a black hole, depending on the remaining mass. When stars exploded, they emitted an electro magnetic pulse. This pulse could cause electromagnetic devices, such as computers, to fail. The shock waves could pose a danger to starships too close to them, and even collapsed their warp fields."--Memphis77 (talk) 19:58, January 10, 2020 (UTC) Good work! Your eyes are better than mine. It does look as if whoever has the equivalent of Mike Okuda’s job referred to the MA entry when writing that text, but I suppose the wording isn’t quite close enough to prove it. —Josiah Rowe (talk) 21:14, January 10, 2020 (UTC) Removed * The term "WSA" stands for "William Shatner Academy." :Added by an IP who's only got some minor questionable edits, and the only thing I find for this via google is Trekmovie's review of the ep dearly hoping it stands for that https://trekmovie.com/2020/01/10/review-star-trek-short-treks-children-of-mars/, so I think this can be safely removed for now. -- Capricorn (talk) 02:05, January 11, 2020 (UTC) Dormitory Another thing: can it really be said that these kids lived in a dormitory? I figured that was just their homes (possibly in the same building, hence similar design), where they lived probably with their other parent. -- Capricorn (talk) 01:54, January 11, 2020 (UTC) :I think it’s the fact that no other parents are seen, either in the girls’ living areas or at the drop-off, that makes people think it was a dormitory. On the other hand, if WSA is a boarding school, it does seem slightly odd that the dormitory would be so far from the class building that you need to take a shuttle to get from one to the other. Generally, boarding schools are pedestrian-oriented, and kids walk from the dorm to their classes. I’d say the evidence is equivocal. —Josiah Rowe (talk) 02:46, January 11, 2020 (UTC) ::It could be an example of an off-campus residence hall.--Memphis77 (talk) 02:59, January 11, 2020 (UTC) The point isn't what people might think, the point is that we should not make that claims unless they're verifiably true. -- Capricorn (talk) 04:56, January 11, 2020 (UTC) ::A question was posed, where were the girls living at? I did research and posed an answer. I do not claim to know what it is.--Memphis77 (talk) 06:26, January 11, 2020 (UTC) No one asked that question. -- Capricorn (talk) 07:00, January 11, 2020 (UTC) :::I considered it to be obvious that these were dorms, since the point of the episode seems to be that all they have is each other at the end. I just called it like I saw it, like how I know Lil drew her picture with a stylus and that she got tripped in the school library and not some records hall. :::Since it doesn't seem obvious to others though, I came to this conclusion due to the aforementioned lack of any indication of another parent, that they have identical rooms and don't seem to have any other personal space, and that the only adult we see in the area looks to be a school security officer. He is visable on the left side of the shuttle stop as the craft departs. The building also looks like what a Hollywood executive would want a future dorm to look like, and what a number of dorms do look like in Chicago right now where multiple schools have campuses and housing spread out all over the city. :::Which is why I don't consider it to be weird at all that dorms might be far enough away to have a shuttle. We have seen many forms of mass transit available at this time, and space is probably still at a premium what with Starfleet Headquarters, Starfleet Academy, and the cities all crammed into the bay area. Kima didn't seem all that late for school either considering she missed the last shuttle. Which brings me to the point that at least multiple shuttles service this shuttle stop for a single school, and that the route map, while unreadable to me, makes it seem like there are many routes, hence many schools. With all that, I'm under the impression that the production wants me to think the WSA, and probably a number of other schools for that matter, house students near EDucation stop 1 in dorms. :::Now was it spelled out like it once would have been, no. But that kind of storytelling, at least with these new shows, seems pretty dead. Would it be nice if we knew either way, sure, but I don't see how assuming any of the other options is any better, and it certainly make for a lesser story. - 08:02, January 11, 2020 (UTC) Never mind the merits of assuming other options, all I'm suggesting is maybe not codifying one interpretation of an ambiguous situation. To some, this will obviously be a dorm, to some it could be whatever. But I don't see the big problem with this new storytelling, if the ep doesn't outright make something clear then we can just reflect that, it's easy enough. I know university dorms that look a lot like those buildings too, but I can say the same thing about apartment complexes (and there's bus stops mostly used by students under both). Besides, the whole situation doesn't make much sense in the first place, beyond the impressionistic that is. Do they both have just one parent? Aren't there any schools on Mars? Didn't Voyager say kids got the day off on First Contact Day? Etc. -- Capricorn (talk) 09:12, January 11, 2020 (UTC) :::Not identifying where they live somehow is a short term solution at best, and not an option long term, as we have seen their rooms and they should be mentioned and covered somewhere. Apartment, dormitory, and condominium would be the locations to cover that info, and dormitory fits the facts best as they were presented, and as we have those pages defined. Considering 1 in 4 kids in the US now only have one parent, based on the last figures I saw, I don't think it's weird for them to both be from single parent homes. It's also just as likely that their other parent is in Starfleet on assignment, or any other number of possibilities. Same is true for why Mars may not have schools, or the Mars Defense Perimeter for that matter. - 16:15, January 20, 2020 (UTC) ::::I thought the policy here was that if we can't definitively say for certain, or at least within reasonable doubt, then it gets left out of the main body of the the article. Or am I wrong? Sounds like, since this is open to interpretation, we'd best just refer to their living space as a "residence," and either leave the specifics til more information is available, or, if you must speculate that it is a dormitory, note the possibility in offset italics? Or am I misunderstanding policy and how things are normally done here? --TimPendragon (talk) 17:36, January 20, 2020 (UTC) :I agree with Archduk3 that it's probably a dormitory, but I also agree with Capricorn and Tim that it's not definitely a dormitory, and it's not completely unreasonable to think it might be an apartment building or condo... or some other sort of common living space (how does real estate work in a society without money, anyway?). I think that Tim's "residence" is the best alternative. —Josiah Rowe (talk) 04:32, January 22, 2020 (UTC) Date People say 'Merry Christmas' long before December 25th; could it be that people say 'Happy First Contact Day' before April 5th- and thus this episode isn't necessarily on First Contact Day? (a day when school is in session as opposed to the 5th when they might be off) 31dot (talk) 08:14, January 11, 2020 (UTC) Of course, launching an attack on First Contact Day would be quite a statement from the attackers- so maybe it is the 5th. 31dot (talk) 08:20, January 11, 2020 (UTC) :Wow, we really are the problem. The secular utopian future called into questioned by moden day darkest timeline religious comparison. Considering how these new shows don't stop to explain themselves, if were going to question things they bother to spell out in literal glowing holographic letters the size of your head, we might as well pack it in. :Seriously though, I know this Earth and all, but First Contact Day is a holiday for only the one species, so why would they have it off? Why would we expect them to have it off? We've seen parties for the holiday before, but I don't remember anyone taking the day. - 08:31, January 11, 2020 (UTC) :God damn Janeway and the only other reference being not going to school. Why can nothing with these shows be easy?! :I'm rationalizing it as schools in Indiana suck and so do the writers. - 08:46, January 11, 2020 (UTC) It's a valid point to question since we have the statement that schools are typically closed. 31dot (talk) 09:51, January 11, 2020 (UTC) :I think it's valid to point out the discrepancy, but since there are about 50 years between the datapoints, Janeway as a child and the 2380s, I think it pretty easy to say at one point FCD was a day without school at one point, but later kids did have school that day. - 05:11, January 13, 2020 (UTC) ::It would be the equivalent of going to school on Veterans Day—-Jkirk8907 (talk) 07:40, January 24, 2020 (UTC) "Achieve" and "Grow" banners The suggests that the "Achieve" banner in the atrium (as seen here) has Paramount's "Majestic Mountain" as its background image. (I also saw another review somewhere else (I can't remember where) that suggested that the field of wheat behind the "Grow" banner was reminiscent of the Bad Robot logo.) The mountain doesn't seem to quite match any of the versions of Paramount's logo, but I could be wrong. Is this worth noting on the page, or not? —Josiah Rowe (talk) 03:24, January 14, 2020 (UTC)